<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Humanae Vitae: the 40th anniversary</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.cornellsociety.org/2008/07/humanae-vitae-the-40th-anniversary/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2008/07/humanae-vitae-the-40th-anniversary/</link>
	<description>Unity in charity, diversity in truth</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 23 Nov 2008 16:07:16 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2</generator>
		<item>
		<title>By: Clara</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2008/07/humanae-vitae-the-40th-anniversary/#comment-59685</link>
		<dc:creator>Clara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 03:50:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cornellsociety.org/?p=2290#comment-59685</guid>
		<description>Okay, yes, well I'm not big on that way of putting things. I'm also not big on over-emphasizing the cooperation, parity etc. involved in NFP... at least, it needs to be clear that those things are not &lt;i&gt;per se&lt;/i&gt; the &lt;i&gt;justification&lt;/i&gt; of this method of postponing pregnancy. They are perhaps accompanying benefits, and we shouldn't be surprised about that because moral living almost always brings lots of benefits along with it, but it's not as if artificial birth control would become okay if it could be practiced in a "cooperative" way that "recognized parity between men and women." I think that often gets confused.

Anyway, like so many things of this era, the language and emphases are not always right on target. But they're playing the right game. 

I started to launch into a monster explanation of why that is the case, but it occurred to me that maybe I should put this reflection into a separate post. So maybe you'll get that later, if I finish it.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, yes, well I&#8217;m not big on that way of putting things. I&#8217;m also not big on over-emphasizing the cooperation, parity etc. involved in NFP&#8230; at least, it needs to be clear that those things are not <i>per se</i> the <i>justification</i> of this method of postponing pregnancy. They are perhaps accompanying benefits, and we shouldn&#8217;t be surprised about that because moral living almost always brings lots of benefits along with it, but it&#8217;s not as if artificial birth control would become okay if it could be practiced in a &#8220;cooperative&#8221; way that &#8220;recognized parity between men and women.&#8221; I think that often gets confused.</p>
<p>Anyway, like so many things of this era, the language and emphases are not always right on target. But they&#8217;re playing the right game. </p>
<p>I started to launch into a monster explanation of why that is the case, but it occurred to me that maybe I should put this reflection into a separate post. So maybe you&#8217;ll get that later, if I finish it.  :)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Iosephus</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2008/07/humanae-vitae-the-40th-anniversary/#comment-59676</link>
		<dc:creator>Iosephus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 02:33:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cornellsociety.org/?p=2290#comment-59676</guid>
		<description>Clara, I'd point out that if you look back at my post, they're not Weigel's words - he's simply quoting the words of the "Krakow memorandum", to which, presumably, Karol Wojtyla contributed in part.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clara, I&#8217;d point out that if you look back at my post, they&#8217;re not Weigel&#8217;s words - he&#8217;s simply quoting the words of the &#8220;Krakow memorandum&#8221;, to which, presumably, Karol Wojtyla contributed in part.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Clara</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2008/07/humanae-vitae-the-40th-anniversary/#comment-59662</link>
		<dc:creator>Clara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 00:45:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cornellsociety.org/?p=2290#comment-59662</guid>
		<description>Heh heh, all right, Iosephe. I'm not really spoiling for another fight about this. Of course I do agree with you that NFP is sometimes overused to limit family size for no very serious reason, and yes, Weigel's way of putting it is very icky. 

It's icky in part because it cedes to "chance" what some of us would like to think is in "God's" hands, but also because it seems to pass over a critical part of the whole process -- the part that embraces the mysterious nature of the origin of life, and submits to whatever God has in store. As you point out, we cannot simply "call" children into existence at will; God Himself must decide to take a hand in this. Avoiding pregnancy through NFP is not inherently and directly a violation of the natural law, but it can destroy the appropriate &lt;i&gt;spirit&lt;/i&gt; in which we should approach something so momentous, insofar as we start to view childbearing as a kind of precise science, to be manipulated for our own convenience.

Most of all, Weigel's words are offensive because they imply that people who have not taken pains to learn about fertility are somehow &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; consciously or deliberately participating in procreation in a way that NFP users are. And that, of course, is ridiculous. Just because you weren't conscious that &lt;i&gt;this particular marital act&lt;/i&gt; was especially likely to lead to conception, doesn't mean that you just left the whole business "to chance." All normal adults understand the basic facts of human reproduction; if they conceive children in &lt;i&gt;inappropriate&lt;/i&gt; ways (i.e. out of wedlock) we certainly don't accept the excuse, "Well, it was just chance."

What I so often come back to in these conversations is that there are two ways of improperly appreciating the mystery of procreation -- one, by trying to make it into a direct and controllable science, and the other, by failing to enjoy and marvel over the fact that we ourselves &lt;i&gt;do&lt;/i&gt; consciously and willingly participate in procreation. Children are conceived through a particular and deliberate act of their parents -- one that we don't &lt;i&gt;need&lt;/i&gt; to engage in at all, and one that we are very well aware has as one possible consequence the begetting of new life. A person who told himself, "I must not &lt;i&gt;try&lt;/i&gt; to beget children, because that is God's prerogative and not mine. Therefore, I will engage in marital relations only when physical desire compels me, or as a way of fostering intimacy with my spouse, but &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; specially in hopes of begetting a child," would not have understood properly. It is the right and privilege of a married person to "try" to beget new life; this is one of the great honors that has been granted him in assuming the married state. He must be mindful, certainly, that his efforts are only one part of the equation, and yet they &lt;i&gt;are&lt;/i&gt; an important and necessary part of the equation, and that's part of the mystery too.  

It seems clear to me that some level of rational deliberation must always have been exercised by married couples with respect to family size, whether that's, "I don't feel ready for another pregnancy right away, so perhaps I'd better keep nursing," or, "it'd be hard for her to have a baby while I'm away at sea -- perhaps I'd best sleep on the floor until I leave so I don't get tempted," or "one more glass of wine and he'll be in a mood to try for a son!" or "I've heard that these herbs might increase my chances of conceiving." When I was in the Peace Corps in Uzbekistan, I heard all manner of theories about what would make people more fertile or less, or increase the chances of having a son or a daughter -- I'm convinced that all societies have had this sort of thing to one degree or another. Of course, a good percentage of the Uzbek ones were just silly superstitions, whereas we have much better information, and together with more effective methods come more pressing moral questions, and a need for more nuanced treatment of them. Sometimes we may yearn for simpler, more ignorant times, not totally unreasonably, but I guess my feeling is just that that cat's *way* out of the bag by now...   so it's good that we have writers like Hildebrandt and, yes, JPII, to help us work through the questions, and approach marriage in the right spirit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heh heh, all right, Iosephe. I&#8217;m not really spoiling for another fight about this. Of course I do agree with you that NFP is sometimes overused to limit family size for no very serious reason, and yes, Weigel&#8217;s way of putting it is very icky. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s icky in part because it cedes to &#8220;chance&#8221; what some of us would like to think is in &#8220;God&#8217;s&#8221; hands, but also because it seems to pass over a critical part of the whole process &#8212; the part that embraces the mysterious nature of the origin of life, and submits to whatever God has in store. As you point out, we cannot simply &#8220;call&#8221; children into existence at will; God Himself must decide to take a hand in this. Avoiding pregnancy through NFP is not inherently and directly a violation of the natural law, but it can destroy the appropriate <i>spirit</i> in which we should approach something so momentous, insofar as we start to view childbearing as a kind of precise science, to be manipulated for our own convenience.</p>
<p>Most of all, Weigel&#8217;s words are offensive because they imply that people who have not taken pains to learn about fertility are somehow <i>not</i> consciously or deliberately participating in procreation in a way that NFP users are. And that, of course, is ridiculous. Just because you weren&#8217;t conscious that <i>this particular marital act</i> was especially likely to lead to conception, doesn&#8217;t mean that you just left the whole business &#8220;to chance.&#8221; All normal adults understand the basic facts of human reproduction; if they conceive children in <i>inappropriate</i> ways (i.e. out of wedlock) we certainly don&#8217;t accept the excuse, &#8220;Well, it was just chance.&#8221;</p>
<p>What I so often come back to in these conversations is that there are two ways of improperly appreciating the mystery of procreation &#8212; one, by trying to make it into a direct and controllable science, and the other, by failing to enjoy and marvel over the fact that we ourselves <i>do</i> consciously and willingly participate in procreation. Children are conceived through a particular and deliberate act of their parents &#8212; one that we don&#8217;t <i>need</i> to engage in at all, and one that we are very well aware has as one possible consequence the begetting of new life. A person who told himself, &#8220;I must not <i>try</i> to beget children, because that is God&#8217;s prerogative and not mine. Therefore, I will engage in marital relations only when physical desire compels me, or as a way of fostering intimacy with my spouse, but <i>not</i> specially in hopes of begetting a child,&#8221; would not have understood properly. It is the right and privilege of a married person to &#8220;try&#8221; to beget new life; this is one of the great honors that has been granted him in assuming the married state. He must be mindful, certainly, that his efforts are only one part of the equation, and yet they <i>are</i> an important and necessary part of the equation, and that&#8217;s part of the mystery too.  </p>
<p>It seems clear to me that some level of rational deliberation must always have been exercised by married couples with respect to family size, whether that&#8217;s, &#8220;I don&#8217;t feel ready for another pregnancy right away, so perhaps I&#8217;d better keep nursing,&#8221; or, &#8220;it&#8217;d be hard for her to have a baby while I&#8217;m away at sea &#8212; perhaps I&#8217;d best sleep on the floor until I leave so I don&#8217;t get tempted,&#8221; or &#8220;one more glass of wine and he&#8217;ll be in a mood to try for a son!&#8221; or &#8220;I&#8217;ve heard that these herbs might increase my chances of conceiving.&#8221; When I was in the Peace Corps in Uzbekistan, I heard all manner of theories about what would make people more fertile or less, or increase the chances of having a son or a daughter &#8212; I&#8217;m convinced that all societies have had this sort of thing to one degree or another. Of course, a good percentage of the Uzbek ones were just silly superstitions, whereas we have much better information, and together with more effective methods come more pressing moral questions, and a need for more nuanced treatment of them. Sometimes we may yearn for simpler, more ignorant times, not totally unreasonably, but I guess my feeling is just that that cat&#8217;s *way* out of the bag by now&#8230;   so it&#8217;s good that we have writers like Hildebrandt and, yes, JPII, to help us work through the questions, and approach marriage in the right spirit.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: JSP</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2008/07/humanae-vitae-the-40th-anniversary/#comment-59624</link>
		<dc:creator>JSP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 18:07:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cornellsociety.org/?p=2290#comment-59624</guid>
		<description>Yes, the old exception becomes the rule which is so typical of the post-Vatican II Catholic world.

By the way, how many people suffering under true grave circumstances are going to be thinking about sex, never mind even NFP?  For instance, you've found yourself caught in the middle of genocidal civil war; of course everyone's first thought is to break out the thermometer and the NFP charts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, the old exception becomes the rule which is so typical of the post-Vatican II Catholic world.</p>
<p>By the way, how many people suffering under true grave circumstances are going to be thinking about sex, never mind even NFP?  For instance, you&#8217;ve found yourself caught in the middle of genocidal civil war; of course everyone&#8217;s first thought is to break out the thermometer and the NFP charts.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Iosephus</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2008/07/humanae-vitae-the-40th-anniversary/#comment-59607</link>
		<dc:creator>Iosephus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:30:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cornellsociety.org/?p=2290#comment-59607</guid>
		<description>Yes, I have read &lt;i&gt;Love and Responsibility&lt;/i&gt;, cover to cover.  I read it, though, before I had become indoctrinated by the evil traditionalist movement.  I'm not sure what my reaction would be now.

At any rate, I was intrigued when I came across that passage in Weigel - I find such language rather alarming.  Catechesis on marriage and family is a beautiful thing, but when we start bowing to pressures to regulate the birth of our children - and the only reason given is so that their births be not left to chance - that creeps me out.

In any case, Clara, we all know that NFP can only be used for grave reasons, and so attempts to instill NFP into the marriages of all Catholics is, at the least, misguided, though if it is never misused, what a great thing!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I have read <i>Love and Responsibility</i>, cover to cover.  I read it, though, before I had become indoctrinated by the evil traditionalist movement.  I&#8217;m not sure what my reaction would be now.</p>
<p>At any rate, I was intrigued when I came across that passage in Weigel - I find such language rather alarming.  Catechesis on marriage and family is a beautiful thing, but when we start bowing to pressures to regulate the birth of our children - and the only reason given is so that their births be not left to chance - that creeps me out.</p>
<p>In any case, Clara, we all know that NFP can only be used for grave reasons, and so attempts to instill NFP into the marriages of all Catholics is, at the least, misguided, though if it is never misused, what a great thing!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: JSP</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2008/07/humanae-vitae-the-40th-anniversary/#comment-59598</link>
		<dc:creator>JSP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:15:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cornellsociety.org/?p=2290#comment-59598</guid>
		<description>Great write up and analysis!

How about a reflection on HE Bishop Tissier de Mallerais' interview with Angelus?

My favorite part was -

Q: Which books do you think are most essential for the faithful in these days?

Tissier de Mallerais: For all, their missal (Mass book) and their catechism. For young men, books on the social kingship of Christ. For young ladies, books on cooking, sewing and how to furnish a home. 

I was surprised not to see a response from the Cornell Society's Ladies Auxiliary on the WDTPRS blog about what I'm sure a modernist would call the good bishop's "misogyny."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great write up and analysis!</p>
<p>How about a reflection on HE Bishop Tissier de Mallerais&#8217; interview with Angelus?</p>
<p>My favorite part was -</p>
<p>Q: Which books do you think are most essential for the faithful in these days?</p>
<p>Tissier de Mallerais: For all, their missal (Mass book) and their catechism. For young men, books on the social kingship of Christ. For young ladies, books on cooking, sewing and how to furnish a home. </p>
<p>I was surprised not to see a response from the Cornell Society&#8217;s Ladies Auxiliary on the WDTPRS blog about what I&#8217;m sure a modernist would call the good bishop&#8217;s &#8220;misogyny.&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Clara</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2008/07/humanae-vitae-the-40th-anniversary/#comment-59546</link>
		<dc:creator>Clara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 05:59:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cornellsociety.org/?p=2290#comment-59546</guid>
		<description>Iosephe, you do a grave injustice to John Paul II when you suggest that his main accomplishment with regards to marriage and sex was to persuade people to have less children. His contributions to the Catholic understanding of marriage and family were significant,in an area where further teaching was sorely needed. Marriage is one subject about which the saints and Doctors have relatively little to say, in part no doubt because they regarded marriage as a lesser state anyway, and in part because extended treatments of such questions seemed less necessary in days when more was taken for granted. But particularly in our day, when traditional ideas about family are dissolving at an alarming rate, apologetic explanations are very much needed, and this was one of the major accomplishments of theology of the body. How much do you know about it, seriously, except for this old bone about overuse of NFP? Have you read Love and Responsibility, or any of Hildebrant's works on marriage? It's not just propaganda urging people to decrease their family sizes; there is some good stuff in there.

I know we've been through this a thousand times, but playing with fertility is an old, old game; now that our &lt;i&gt;power&lt;/i&gt; in this regard is increased, careful theological treatment of it -- as well as useful teaching aids to explain Church teaching -- were very necessary. Let's not spoil the happy occasion by fixating on the misplaced enthusiasms of a few!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Iosephe, you do a grave injustice to John Paul II when you suggest that his main accomplishment with regards to marriage and sex was to persuade people to have less children. His contributions to the Catholic understanding of marriage and family were significant,in an area where further teaching was sorely needed. Marriage is one subject about which the saints and Doctors have relatively little to say, in part no doubt because they regarded marriage as a lesser state anyway, and in part because extended treatments of such questions seemed less necessary in days when more was taken for granted. But particularly in our day, when traditional ideas about family are dissolving at an alarming rate, apologetic explanations are very much needed, and this was one of the major accomplishments of theology of the body. How much do you know about it, seriously, except for this old bone about overuse of NFP? Have you read Love and Responsibility, or any of Hildebrant&#8217;s works on marriage? It&#8217;s not just propaganda urging people to decrease their family sizes; there is some good stuff in there.</p>
<p>I know we&#8217;ve been through this a thousand times, but playing with fertility is an old, old game; now that our <i>power</i> in this regard is increased, careful theological treatment of it &#8212; as well as useful teaching aids to explain Church teaching &#8212; were very necessary. Let&#8217;s not spoil the happy occasion by fixating on the misplaced enthusiasms of a few!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Dynamic Page Served (once) in 1.585 seconds -->
