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	<title>Comments on: Unity, Values and the Gift of Sexuality</title>
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	<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/unity-values-and-the-gift-of-sexuality/</link>
	<description>Unity in charity, diversity in truth</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:37:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Discipulus</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/unity-values-and-the-gift-of-sexuality/#comment-15351</link>
		<dc:creator>Discipulus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 22:58:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Congratulations. You said, “expensive, luxuriant, completely unnecessarily extravagant honeymoon” I thought for someone from mid-state NY, renting a car and going to Niagara Falls would fill the bill. Then I remembered that you’re not native to the place.  Not only that but throwing two philosophers into the mix has now got me baffled.  This could get wild, not to mention confusing. Are those adjectives up above or predicables, formal attributes or accidentals?  I’m inclined to guess Greece but these days, that’s a little too ’Oi  Polloi.  I’m sure you have it all figured out and the rest of us will just have to wait for the postcard.  I’m all for some place highly rewarding before you have to move a couple of states away and settle down in Ann Arborland.  “But, I spare you.”  Wherever it is, Dominus Vobiscum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Congratulations. You said, “expensive, luxuriant, completely unnecessarily extravagant honeymoon” I thought for someone from mid-state NY, renting a car and going to Niagara Falls would fill the bill. Then I remembered that you’re not native to the place.  Not only that but throwing two philosophers into the mix has now got me baffled.  This could get wild, not to mention confusing. Are those adjectives up above or predicables, formal attributes or accidentals?  I’m inclined to guess Greece but these days, that’s a little too ’Oi  Polloi.  I’m sure you have it all figured out and the rest of us will just have to wait for the postcard.  I’m all for some place highly rewarding before you have to move a couple of states away and settle down in Ann Arborland.  “But, I spare you.”  Wherever it is, Dominus Vobiscum.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/unity-values-and-the-gift-of-sexuality/#comment-15340</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 20:58:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/unity-values-and-the-gift-of-sexuality/#comment-15340</guid>
		<description>I feel so sorry for any poor soul who has to do anything associated with the Diocese of Rochester NY.  I too went to pre-cana there and now my wife (a product of that Diocese) abandoned me, took our child and has filed for divorce.  That is the product of the Rochester catechesis---nominalism through and through.  However, I know that both of you understand the sacrament as well as the immunity of the Church in temporal matters no matter what the state has to say about it.  What I mean to say is that your religion is not a societal convention entered into to please others or to look 'proper'.  Pray for me and my family.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel so sorry for any poor soul who has to do anything associated with the Diocese of Rochester NY.  I too went to pre-cana there and now my wife (a product of that Diocese) abandoned me, took our child and has filed for divorce.  That is the product of the Rochester catechesis&#8212;nominalism through and through.  However, I know that both of you understand the sacrament as well as the immunity of the Church in temporal matters no matter what the state has to say about it.  What I mean to say is that your religion is not a societal convention entered into to please others or to look &#8216;proper&#8217;.  Pray for me and my family.</p>
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		<title>By: Cpt Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/unity-values-and-the-gift-of-sexuality/#comment-15338</link>
		<dc:creator>Cpt Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 18:27:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/unity-values-and-the-gift-of-sexuality/#comment-15338</guid>
		<description>No, they would not talk about obligation, heck, they can't even bring themselves to acknowledge the Pope, but, I will say this much for the folks here vs Connecticut where I moved from, they DO see children as good news and a Gift from God. I judge this by the reaction of people here vs CT when people heard the news and when our boy was born: Here "That's wonderful!!! God Bless."  CT: "did you plan this?"

Children and the raising of them should be one the Most important (next living according to God's teachings)reasons for marriage. A couples love is the foundation to build the faith and security of that family on.   Love is not an end to itself.  That is why Love also includes honesty and looking out for the good of the beloved.  It is definitely a much deeper pool than the sugary thing that the hippie generation ascribes to it.  As a parent we are here to be strong for our children, guide them, and bring them up to be Godly and proper people for the Kingdom of God.  I hope (i don't demand) they will always love me, but, I don't expect them to always like me. Otherwise, I'm their "buddy" and not their father. I allow them to make mistakes, and I allow them to ask for forgiveness and I forgive. This is the model that our Heavenly father gives us to follow, and it's a pretty good one at that!

Peace to you both, and a long and happy Marriage!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, they would not talk about obligation, heck, they can&#8217;t even bring themselves to acknowledge the Pope, but, I will say this much for the folks here vs Connecticut where I moved from, they DO see children as good news and a Gift from God. I judge this by the reaction of people here vs CT when people heard the news and when our boy was born: Here &#8220;That&#8217;s wonderful!!! God Bless.&#8221;  CT: &#8220;did you plan this?&#8221;</p>
<p>Children and the raising of them should be one the Most important (next living according to God&#8217;s teachings)reasons for marriage. A couples love is the foundation to build the faith and security of that family on.   Love is not an end to itself.  That is why Love also includes honesty and looking out for the good of the beloved.  It is definitely a much deeper pool than the sugary thing that the hippie generation ascribes to it.  As a parent we are here to be strong for our children, guide them, and bring them up to be Godly and proper people for the Kingdom of God.  I hope (i don&#8217;t demand) they will always love me, but, I don&#8217;t expect them to always like me. Otherwise, I&#8217;m their &#8220;buddy&#8221; and not their father. I allow them to make mistakes, and I allow them to ask for forgiveness and I forgive. This is the model that our Heavenly father gives us to follow, and it&#8217;s a pretty good one at that!</p>
<p>Peace to you both, and a long and happy Marriage!</p>
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		<title>By: Clara</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/unity-values-and-the-gift-of-sexuality/#comment-15334</link>
		<dc:creator>Clara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 15:56:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/unity-values-and-the-gift-of-sexuality/#comment-15334</guid>
		<description>"Incidentally, this baptism font has an interesting historical note. Apparently it was at this font that Margaret Sanger (Founder of Planned Parenthood) was baptized, as she was born in Corning and attended our church as a little girl. Not exactly great history…."

Wow! That is rather a ghoulish detail...

And yes, Cpt. Tom, you're quite right: I expected children would be a major focus of a Pre-Cana workshop, but, although they came up incidentally a number of times, there were no formal sessions about them and nothing at all was said about the obligation to have children or to raise them as Catholics. But we did hear about the importance of setting aside income for charitable giving. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Incidentally, this baptism font has an interesting historical note. Apparently it was at this font that Margaret Sanger (Founder of Planned Parenthood) was baptized, as she was born in Corning and attended our church as a little girl. Not exactly great history….&#8221;</p>
<p>Wow! That is rather a ghoulish detail&#8230;</p>
<p>And yes, Cpt. Tom, you&#8217;re quite right: I expected children would be a major focus of a Pre-Cana workshop, but, although they came up incidentally a number of times, there were no formal sessions about them and nothing at all was said about the obligation to have children or to raise them as Catholics. But we did hear about the importance of setting aside income for charitable giving. :-)</p>
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		<title>By: Clara</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/unity-values-and-the-gift-of-sexuality/#comment-15333</link>
		<dc:creator>Clara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 15:52:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/unity-values-and-the-gift-of-sexuality/#comment-15333</guid>
		<description>I was going to go pull out my Hildebrand to answer Tobias Petrus' question, but then realized that I probably should not take the time just now to do all this research; perhaps at a later time I can start another thread about it. So let me just say: as far as I understand it, there might be many activities in life that have a meaning apart from their proper end, which in some sense takes the end as its ground without being utterly subordinate to it. Apart from making love, it seems to me that something like this can hold true for eating, for learning, for worship, and for many other things as well.

Consider eating. The proper end of this act is obviously to nourish our bodies, and yet eating can have important social, cultural and spiritual significance as well. It generally wouldn't be right to say that that significance is purely derived from the proper end of eating, though the goal of nourishment is non-accidentally related to it. When we eat Thanksgiving dinner with our families, this has a deep significance for us beyond filling our bellies with food; it represents family, safety, our gratitude for our blessed lives, etc. These goods could not be immediately derived from the end of the act, and yet the end provides the ground against which the meal can &lt;i&gt;have&lt;/i&gt; this deeper meaning. Somehow Thanksgiving really wouldn't be the same if we were chewing food and spitting it into spittoons, or eating with the intention of vomiting the food back up afterwards. We can invest deeper meaning in it precisely &lt;i&gt;as&lt;/i&gt; the act that it properly is: that of nourishing our bodies.

In the case of eating Thanksgiving dinner, I think it would be improper to call nourishment and (let's just say) family togetherness "two equally important ends." In one sense it would be perfectly right and normal for a person to &lt;i&gt;value&lt;/i&gt; the latter more, even while recognizing that the former gives a better formal description of the end of the act of eating. But what matters is that they are each part of the same process, and it would be wrong and futile to try to pull them apart. Parallels to lovemaking should not be difficult to draw.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was going to go pull out my Hildebrand to answer Tobias Petrus&#8217; question, but then realized that I probably should not take the time just now to do all this research; perhaps at a later time I can start another thread about it. So let me just say: as far as I understand it, there might be many activities in life that have a meaning apart from their proper end, which in some sense takes the end as its ground without being utterly subordinate to it. Apart from making love, it seems to me that something like this can hold true for eating, for learning, for worship, and for many other things as well.</p>
<p>Consider eating. The proper end of this act is obviously to nourish our bodies, and yet eating can have important social, cultural and spiritual significance as well. It generally wouldn&#8217;t be right to say that that significance is purely derived from the proper end of eating, though the goal of nourishment is non-accidentally related to it. When we eat Thanksgiving dinner with our families, this has a deep significance for us beyond filling our bellies with food; it represents family, safety, our gratitude for our blessed lives, etc. These goods could not be immediately derived from the end of the act, and yet the end provides the ground against which the meal can <i>have</i> this deeper meaning. Somehow Thanksgiving really wouldn&#8217;t be the same if we were chewing food and spitting it into spittoons, or eating with the intention of vomiting the food back up afterwards. We can invest deeper meaning in it precisely <i>as</i> the act that it properly is: that of nourishing our bodies.</p>
<p>In the case of eating Thanksgiving dinner, I think it would be improper to call nourishment and (let&#8217;s just say) family togetherness &#8220;two equally important ends.&#8221; In one sense it would be perfectly right and normal for a person to <i>value</i> the latter more, even while recognizing that the former gives a better formal description of the end of the act of eating. But what matters is that they are each part of the same process, and it would be wrong and futile to try to pull them apart. Parallels to lovemaking should not be difficult to draw.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad C</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/unity-values-and-the-gift-of-sexuality/#comment-15332</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 15:43:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/unity-values-and-the-gift-of-sexuality/#comment-15332</guid>
		<description>"We believe that every occasion of sexual intercourse has two equal purposes – the love and support of the couple, and the possibility of new life. The Second Vatican Council changed past Church teaching which said that procreation was the main purpose of sexual intercourse. However, it also stated that love and life cannot be separated."

With respect to Vatican II changing the Church's teaching, here is #50 of Gaudium et Spes:

"50. Marriage and conjugal love are by their nature ordained toward the begetting and educating of children. Children are really the supreme gift of marriage and contribute very substantially to the welfare of their parents . . . Hence, while not making the other purposes of matrimony of less account, the true practice of conjugal love, and the whole meaning of the family life which results from it, have this aim: that the couple be ready with stout hearts to cooperate with the love of the Creator and the Savior. Who through them will enlarge and enrich His own family day by day."

               *    *    *
"Parents should regard as their proper mission the task of transmitting human life and educating those to whom it has been transmitted. They should realize that they are thereby cooperators with the love of God the Creator, and are, so to speak, the interpreters of that love . . . That divine law reveals and protects the &lt;i&gt;integral meaning&lt;/i&gt; of conjugal love, and impels it toward a truly human fulfillment." (emphasis added).

I think the authors of that book are using this passage to give their "double purpose" interpretation of the Church's teaching on the meaning of sex:

"Marriage to be sure is not instituted solely for procreation; rather, its very nature as an unbreakable compact between persons, and the welfare of the children, both demand that the mutual love of the spouses be embodied in a rightly ordered manner, that it grow and ripen."

But that is talking about marriage not sex.  There are certainly other goods that marriage has as an end (e.g. friendship), but even these other goods are ordered towards having and raising children as the opening sentence of #50 makes clear.  So despite having PhDs they still got it wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;We believe that every occasion of sexual intercourse has two equal purposes – the love and support of the couple, and the possibility of new life. The Second Vatican Council changed past Church teaching which said that procreation was the main purpose of sexual intercourse. However, it also stated that love and life cannot be separated.&#8221;</p>
<p>With respect to Vatican II changing the Church&#8217;s teaching, here is #50 of Gaudium et Spes:</p>
<p>&#8220;50. Marriage and conjugal love are by their nature ordained toward the begetting and educating of children. Children are really the supreme gift of marriage and contribute very substantially to the welfare of their parents . . . Hence, while not making the other purposes of matrimony of less account, the true practice of conjugal love, and the whole meaning of the family life which results from it, have this aim: that the couple be ready with stout hearts to cooperate with the love of the Creator and the Savior. Who through them will enlarge and enrich His own family day by day.&#8221;</p>
<p>               *    *    *<br />
&#8220;Parents should regard as their proper mission the task of transmitting human life and educating those to whom it has been transmitted. They should realize that they are thereby cooperators with the love of God the Creator, and are, so to speak, the interpreters of that love . . . That divine law reveals and protects the <i>integral meaning</i> of conjugal love, and impels it toward a truly human fulfillment.&#8221; (emphasis added).</p>
<p>I think the authors of that book are using this passage to give their &#8220;double purpose&#8221; interpretation of the Church&#8217;s teaching on the meaning of sex:</p>
<p>&#8220;Marriage to be sure is not instituted solely for procreation; rather, its very nature as an unbreakable compact between persons, and the welfare of the children, both demand that the mutual love of the spouses be embodied in a rightly ordered manner, that it grow and ripen.&#8221;</p>
<p>But that is talking about marriage not sex.  There are certainly other goods that marriage has as an end (e.g. friendship), but even these other goods are ordered towards having and raising children as the opening sentence of #50 makes clear.  So despite having PhDs they still got it wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Tobias Petrus</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/unity-values-and-the-gift-of-sexuality/#comment-15331</link>
		<dc:creator>Tobias Petrus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 14:04:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/unity-values-and-the-gift-of-sexuality/#comment-15331</guid>
		<description>The last is mine (grrr, I wish this "new" blog did not assume that new authors were the same as old ones . . .)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The last is mine (grrr, I wish this &#8220;new&#8221; blog did not assume that new authors were the same as old ones . . .)</p>
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		<title>By: Tobias Petrus</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/unity-values-and-the-gift-of-sexuality/#comment-15330</link>
		<dc:creator>Tobias Petrus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 14:03:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/unity-values-and-the-gift-of-sexuality/#comment-15330</guid>
		<description>"“Procreation is the proper end of sexual intercourse; love is the meaning.” There is nothing about “equality” in this explanation. Each good might be understood as a different part of the same lovely tapestry."

Personally, I've never quite understood von Hildebrand's "meaning" (or was it his "end"?) in this statement.  What's the relationship between "end" and "meaning"?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;“Procreation is the proper end of sexual intercourse; love is the meaning.” There is nothing about “equality” in this explanation. Each good might be understood as a different part of the same lovely tapestry.&#8221;</p>
<p>Personally, I&#8217;ve never quite understood von Hildebrand&#8217;s &#8220;meaning&#8221; (or was it his &#8220;end&#8221;?) in this statement.  What&#8217;s the relationship between &#8220;end&#8221; and &#8220;meaning&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Cpt Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/unity-values-and-the-gift-of-sexuality/#comment-15329</link>
		<dc:creator>Cpt Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 13:45:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/unity-values-and-the-gift-of-sexuality/#comment-15329</guid>
		<description>BTW, I have to say I'm not surprised that they actually considered letting the lesbian couple in the course they are VERY confused here about Catholic teaching on many issues.  I am surprised that they actually listen to the Deacon, they are also a willful lot here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW, I have to say I&#8217;m not surprised that they actually considered letting the lesbian couple in the course they are VERY confused here about Catholic teaching on many issues.  I am surprised that they actually listen to the Deacon, they are also a willful lot here.</p>
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		<title>By: Cpt Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/unity-values-and-the-gift-of-sexuality/#comment-15328</link>
		<dc:creator>Cpt Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 13:42:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/unity-values-and-the-gift-of-sexuality/#comment-15328</guid>
		<description>In this parish, they tend to stick in new-age, hippie, heretical? "prayers" at the end of things that don't fit. When my wife and I went through the pre-baptismal "interrogation" and instruction by one of the local parent teams they of course had to throw in several stupid "social justice" poems and prayers that did not center on the upcoming baptism, but  on the poor children who didn't have parents, homes, money , etc.  Good stuff, badly stated, and for that matter just out of place. I think we should take care of the poor, BUT, baptism is the first sacrament, AND, it is supposed to be a joyful event. Also their advice on child rearing included NOTHING about how to raise a good Catholic child, beyond going to church regularly (duh!).  They just seem to lack perspective, taste, and frankly, Catholic understanding of children.  

For the baptism, the Priest Father Phil, actually did something interesting.  We insisted on having the baptism during mass even though the lay "chaplain" only gave us the option of outside of mass. Father Phil took the opportunity to actually explain what he was doing during the baptism, what all the elements meant (the oil, the water, etc.) and took time to do the ceremony correctly. It was the most orthodox thing I've experienced since I've been here.

Incidentally, this baptism font has an interesting historical note.  Apparently it was at this font that Margaret Sanger (Founder of Planned Parenthood) was baptized, as she was born in Corning and attended our church as a little girl. Not exactly great history....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In this parish, they tend to stick in new-age, hippie, heretical? &#8220;prayers&#8221; at the end of things that don&#8217;t fit. When my wife and I went through the pre-baptismal &#8220;interrogation&#8221; and instruction by one of the local parent teams they of course had to throw in several stupid &#8220;social justice&#8221; poems and prayers that did not center on the upcoming baptism, but  on the poor children who didn&#8217;t have parents, homes, money , etc.  Good stuff, badly stated, and for that matter just out of place. I think we should take care of the poor, BUT, baptism is the first sacrament, AND, it is supposed to be a joyful event. Also their advice on child rearing included NOTHING about how to raise a good Catholic child, beyond going to church regularly (duh!).  They just seem to lack perspective, taste, and frankly, Catholic understanding of children.  </p>
<p>For the baptism, the Priest Father Phil, actually did something interesting.  We insisted on having the baptism during mass even though the lay &#8220;chaplain&#8221; only gave us the option of outside of mass. Father Phil took the opportunity to actually explain what he was doing during the baptism, what all the elements meant (the oil, the water, etc.) and took time to do the ceremony correctly. It was the most orthodox thing I&#8217;ve experienced since I&#8217;ve been here.</p>
<p>Incidentally, this baptism font has an interesting historical note.  Apparently it was at this font that Margaret Sanger (Founder of Planned Parenthood) was baptized, as she was born in Corning and attended our church as a little girl. Not exactly great history&#8230;.</p>
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