Comments on: The Party for Pius http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/the-party-for-pius/ Unity in charity, diversity in truth Fri, 09 Jan 2009 13:52:49 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Samuel J. Howard http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/the-party-for-pius/#comment-15316 Samuel J. Howard Wed, 09 May 2007 02:52:03 +0000 http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/the-party-for-pius/#comment-15316 I take it none of you guys attend the CCC Sunday Masses anymore, but if you did... Free-form discussion and disagreement...that could get awkward fast. I take it none of you guys attend the CCC Sunday Masses anymore, but if you did…

Free-form discussion and disagreement…that could get awkward fast.

]]> By: anonymous http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/the-party-for-pius/#comment-15312 anonymous Tue, 08 May 2007 17:29:28 +0000 http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/the-party-for-pius/#comment-15312 As a Cornell alumna, I have joyfully lost touch with the CCC. When I read that line about mutual (!!) ash-distribution and students feeling "their reverence for each other" I almost choked on my coffee. Sounds like a thorough and most Christian slapping is still much in need at Anabel Taylor. Thanks for the very fine blog! JB As a Cornell alumna, I have joyfully lost touch with the CCC. When I read that line about mutual (!!) ash-distribution and students feeling “their reverence for each other” I almost choked on my coffee. Sounds like a thorough and most Christian slapping is still much in need at Anabel Taylor.
Thanks for the very fine blog!
JB

]]> By: Tobias Petrus http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/the-party-for-pius/#comment-15310 Tobias Petrus Tue, 08 May 2007 16:19:14 +0000 http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/the-party-for-pius/#comment-15310 The last post is mine. The last post is mine.

]]> By: EM http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/the-party-for-pius/#comment-15309 EM Tue, 08 May 2007 16:18:40 +0000 http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/the-party-for-pius/#comment-15309 Fr. Oakes deserves a very charitable anathema, IMHO. If I had a higher opinion of "First Things," I would say that the editors purposely publish his stuff on Fr. Balthasar in order to discredit both Oakes and Balthasar. Fr. Oakes deserves a very charitable anathema, IMHO. If I had a higher opinion of “First Things,” I would say that the editors purposely publish his stuff on Fr. Balthasar in order to discredit both Oakes and Balthasar.

]]> By: Brad C http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/the-party-for-pius/#comment-15308 Brad C Tue, 08 May 2007 15:34:35 +0000 http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/the-party-for-pius/#comment-15308 "It reminds me of a line in Iota Unum, in the early chapters, where Amerio is explaining what the true legacy of Luther’s revolt amounts to: the whole notion of faith was converted into that of heresy. That is, what the Lutherans called “faith” - the individual conscience assents to a given proposition, irrespective of an external authority - is nothing but heresy - picking and choosing for oneself - decked out to seem glamorous and morally noble." Yes. So even when a Protestant assents to a proposition that is orthodox in itself, the formal motive of the assent is "I believe this because it appears true TO ME". This makes the act of assent heretical in itself because it assumes the judgment of the individual's conscience as the ground of faith. But this presents some problems. All of the talk about Protestants having "elements of truth" and being in "certain but imperfect communion" with the Catholic Church downplays the fact that even when Catholics and Protestants agree on certain propositions, they are not held for the same reasons. I believe in the Trinity because it was revealed by God, not because, after conducting my own inquiry into the historical and Biblical foundations of the doctrine I found that on balance it was more likely to be true than false. So the agreement is really just apparent. This reminds me of the Fr. Oakes piece--"Are Protestants Heretics?"--on the First Things website a couple of months ago. He concluded that there are some Protestants who are "more orthodox" than many Catholic theologians. And he didn't seem to mean that there were some Protestants who believed more orthodox propositions than some liberal Catholics, but that these Protestants were actually not heretics at all, whether formal or material. You cannot say this without completely ignoring Amerio's point. “It reminds me of a line in Iota Unum, in the early chapters, where Amerio is explaining what the true legacy of Luther’s revolt amounts to: the whole notion of faith was converted into that of heresy. That is, what the Lutherans called “faith” - the individual conscience assents to a given proposition, irrespective of an external authority - is nothing but heresy - picking and choosing for oneself - decked out to seem glamorous and morally noble.”

Yes. So even when a Protestant assents to a proposition that is orthodox in itself, the formal motive of the assent is “I believe this because it appears true TO ME”. This makes the act of assent heretical in itself because it assumes the judgment of the individual’s conscience as the ground of faith.

But this presents some problems. All of the talk about Protestants having “elements of truth” and being in “certain but imperfect communion” with the Catholic Church downplays the fact that even when Catholics and Protestants agree on certain propositions, they are not held for the same reasons. I believe in the Trinity because it was revealed by God, not because, after conducting my own inquiry into the historical and Biblical foundations of the doctrine I found that on balance it was more likely to be true than false. So the agreement is really just apparent.

This reminds me of the Fr. Oakes piece–”Are Protestants Heretics?”–on the First Things website a couple of months ago. He concluded that there are some Protestants who are “more orthodox” than many Catholic theologians. And he didn’t seem to mean that there were some Protestants who believed more orthodox propositions than some liberal Catholics, but that these Protestants were actually not heretics at all, whether formal or material. You cannot say this without completely ignoring Amerio’s point.

]]> By: Iosephus http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/the-party-for-pius/#comment-15306 Iosephus Tue, 08 May 2007 14:37:25 +0000 http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/the-party-for-pius/#comment-15306 That's too great! That’s too great!

]]> By: Joseph Shaw http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/the-party-for-pius/#comment-15305 Joseph Shaw Tue, 08 May 2007 14:26:32 +0000 http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/the-party-for-pius/#comment-15305 We've been celebrating St Pius V too: have a look at Lucy Shaw's cake, inspired by the very same picture of the great Pontiff as adorns your post, by El Greco, <a href="http://lucyshawcakes.blogspot.com/2007/05/st-pius-v.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. We’ve been celebrating St Pius V too: have a look at Lucy Shaw’s cake, inspired by the very same picture of the great Pontiff as adorns your post, by El Greco, here.

]]> By: Amabimus te, si manumiseris… at Cornell Society for a Good Time http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/the-party-for-pius/#comment-15304 Amabimus te, si manumiseris… at Cornell Society for a Good Time Tue, 08 May 2007 14:15:54 +0000 http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/the-party-for-pius/#comment-15304 [...] About « The Party for Pius [...] [...] About « The Party for Pius [...]

]]> By: Tobias Petrus http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/the-party-for-pius/#comment-15296 Tobias Petrus Mon, 07 May 2007 21:29:18 +0000 http://www.cornellsociety.org/2007/05/the-party-for-pius/#comment-15296 "and Rule Britannia was sung for the entertainment of one of our guests, a Brit to whose attention I politely demurred to recall the glorious Regnans in excelsis, by which St. Pius V excommunicated “Elizabeth, the pretended Queen of England and the servant of crime”." You may have demurred, but I, "gravissimus hominum etiam in levissimis cenis," did mention it. I also observed that St. Pius deposed Elizabeth in addition to ecommunicating her. But I only brought it up once in passing . . . “and Rule Britannia was sung for the entertainment of one of our guests, a Brit to whose attention I politely demurred to recall the glorious Regnans in excelsis, by which St. Pius V excommunicated “Elizabeth, the pretended Queen of England and the servant of crime”.”

You may have demurred, but I, “gravissimus hominum etiam in levissimis cenis,” did mention it. I also observed that St. Pius deposed Elizabeth in addition to ecommunicating her. But I only brought it up once in passing . . .

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