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	<title>Comments on: Praying for Deceased Heretics?</title>
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	<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2006/09/praying-for-deceased-heretics/</link>
	<description>Unity in charity, diversity in truth</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 17:28:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Clara</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2006/09/praying-for-deceased-heretics/#comment-7575</link>
		<dc:creator>Clara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Sep 2006 12:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cornellsociety.org/2006/09/praying-for-deceased-heretics/#comment-7575</guid>
		<description>Raindear,&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;I see that, but it didn't seem to me to be a necessary condition *of being marked with the sign of faith.* Just a desirable follow-up to it, which no doubt influences whether the faithful do in fact find eternal life, but shouldn't necessarily influence whether we can *pray* that they do.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;JSP,&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;I'm sure everybody knows that you need sanctifying grace in order to be saved. Everyone likewise knows that the baptized can lose sanctifying grace and with it eternal life. Neither was at issue in this post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Raindear,</p>
<p>I see that, but it didn&#8217;t seem to me to be a necessary condition *of being marked with the sign of faith.* Just a desirable follow-up to it, which no doubt influences whether the faithful do in fact find eternal life, but shouldn&#8217;t necessarily influence whether we can *pray* that they do.</p>
<p>JSP,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure everybody knows that you need sanctifying grace in order to be saved. Everyone likewise knows that the baptized can lose sanctifying grace and with it eternal life. Neither was at issue in this post.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Six Pack</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2006/09/praying-for-deceased-heretics/#comment-7576</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Six Pack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Sep 2006 07:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cornellsociety.org/2006/09/praying-for-deceased-heretics/#comment-7576</guid>
		<description>Get a copy of the Catechism of the Council of Trent and stop living in ambiguity.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Sanctifying grace is the share in the divine life that is required to get to heaven.  That's it.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;The baptized can and do go to Hell.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;It's all about sanctifying grace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Get a copy of the Catechism of the Council of Trent and stop living in ambiguity.</p>
<p>Sanctifying grace is the share in the divine life that is required to get to heaven.  That&#8217;s it.</p>
<p>The baptized can and do go to Hell.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s all about sanctifying grace.</p>
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		<title>By: Raindear</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2006/09/praying-for-deceased-heretics/#comment-7577</link>
		<dc:creator>Raindear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Sep 2006 22:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cornellsociety.org/2006/09/praying-for-deceased-heretics/#comment-7577</guid>
		<description>Clara,&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;It seems to me there is a bit of ambiguity in that passage from the Cathechism, particularly if you read the passage immediately preceding.  It is not clear to me that to die "marked with the sign of faith" is merely to die in the state of sanctifying grace. If that were the case, those words could possibly apply to our separated brethren as well.  However, the "demands of Baptism" may be more than that.  &lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;1273 &lt;B&gt;Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship.83 The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.84 &lt;/B&gt;   &lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;It's the bit about participation in the holy liturgy that has me wondering.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clara,</p>
<p>It seems to me there is a bit of ambiguity in that passage from the Cathechism, particularly if you read the passage immediately preceding.  It is not clear to me that to die &#8220;marked with the sign of faith&#8221; is merely to die in the state of sanctifying grace. If that were the case, those words could possibly apply to our separated brethren as well.  However, the &#8220;demands of Baptism&#8221; may be more than that.  </p>
<p>1273 <b>Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship.83 The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.84 </b>   </p>
<p>It&#8217;s the bit about participation in the holy liturgy that has me wondering.</p>
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		<title>By: Clara</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2006/09/praying-for-deceased-heretics/#comment-7578</link>
		<dc:creator>Clara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Sep 2006 20:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cornellsociety.org/2006/09/praying-for-deceased-heretics/#comment-7578</guid>
		<description>Ambrosius, I commend you for being able to excite your imagination with the thought of ancestors whom you never actually knew. It is a nice thought that in paradise we might meet long-dead Catholics who will recognize us as kin. Of course, as you go back, the number of ancestors will double with each generation, so at some point Catholics will almost certainly be included. (Although, for my dear fiance, whose ancestors all hailed from Taiwan or China, he might have to go back pretty far.) &lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;I must confess, though, that for me rememering the unknown ancestor isn't much better than a general intention to pray for the deceased Catholics everywhere. It even makes me mildly resentful to feel that I'm not supposed to pray for my own deceased relatives (the ones I remember) at that time, so I just do it. Maybe I'm breaking with the larger intentions of the Mass at that point... oh, well.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;To clarify from Raindear's point: our "separated brethren" are still baptized. So deceased Protestants could still be marked by the sign of faith. That doesn't help people like me or Dr. A, but Ambrosius should be in the clear!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ambrosius, I commend you for being able to excite your imagination with the thought of ancestors whom you never actually knew. It is a nice thought that in paradise we might meet long-dead Catholics who will recognize us as kin. Of course, as you go back, the number of ancestors will double with each generation, so at some point Catholics will almost certainly be included. (Although, for my dear fiance, whose ancestors all hailed from Taiwan or China, he might have to go back pretty far.) </p>
<p>I must confess, though, that for me rememering the unknown ancestor isn&#8217;t much better than a general intention to pray for the deceased Catholics everywhere. It even makes me mildly resentful to feel that I&#8217;m not supposed to pray for my own deceased relatives (the ones I remember) at that time, so I just do it. Maybe I&#8217;m breaking with the larger intentions of the Mass at that point&#8230; oh, well.</p>
<p>To clarify from Raindear&#8217;s point: our &#8220;separated brethren&#8221; are still baptized. So deceased Protestants could still be marked by the sign of faith. That doesn&#8217;t help people like me or Dr. A, but Ambrosius should be in the clear!</p>
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		<title>By: Raindear</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2006/09/praying-for-deceased-heretics/#comment-7579</link>
		<dc:creator>Raindear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Sep 2006 19:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cornellsociety.org/2006/09/praying-for-deceased-heretics/#comment-7579</guid>
		<description>Quaestor,&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Regarding the 'signum fidei,' the same thing occured to me.  However, a little research proved that thesis false.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;From the &lt;A HREF="http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm" REL="nofollow"&gt;Cathechism&lt;/A&gt;:&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;1274 &lt;B&gt;The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord ("Dominicus character") "for the day of redemption."85 "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life."86 The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith,"87 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.&lt;/B&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quaestor,</p>
<p>Regarding the &#8217;signum fidei,&#8217; the same thing occured to me.  However, a little research proved that thesis false.</p>
<p>From the <a HREF="http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm" REL="nofollow">Cathechism</a>:</p>
<p>1274 <b>The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord (&#8221;Dominicus character&#8221;) &#8220;for the day of redemption.&#8221;85 &#8220;Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life.&#8221;86 The faithful Christian who has &#8220;kept the seal&#8221; until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life &#8220;marked with the sign of faith,&#8221;87 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.</b></p>
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		<title>By: Woody Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2006/09/praying-for-deceased-heretics/#comment-7580</link>
		<dc:creator>Woody Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Sep 2006 07:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cornellsociety.org/2006/09/praying-for-deceased-heretics/#comment-7580</guid>
		<description>Yes, I have seen it said in many places, and have been told by Opus Dei priests, for a start, that it is OK to pray for our separated brethren. That is what I do (since none of my relatives have converted).&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;It is, after all, an act of charity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I have seen it said in many places, and have been told by Opus Dei priests, for a start, that it is OK to pray for our separated brethren. That is what I do (since none of my relatives have converted).</p>
<p>It is, after all, an act of charity.</p>
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		<title>By: Quaestor</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2006/09/praying-for-deceased-heretics/#comment-7581</link>
		<dc:creator>Quaestor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Sep 2006 02:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cornellsociety.org/2006/09/praying-for-deceased-heretics/#comment-7581</guid>
		<description>Could  we take 'signum fidei' as the seal of baptism? In that case you could include all your baptised relatives, heretical or not.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Note that the prayer also includes 'omnes in Christo quiescientes'. It is not for us to judge whether heretics rest in Christ or not, is it?&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;And surely Catholics can pray that even pagans may enter heaven? We can't declare that they will, but we can implore God's mercy for them. Right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could  we take &#8217;signum fidei&#8217; as the seal of baptism? In that case you could include all your baptised relatives, heretical or not.</p>
<p>Note that the prayer also includes &#8216;omnes in Christo quiescientes&#8217;. It is not for us to judge whether heretics rest in Christ or not, is it?</p>
<p>And surely Catholics can pray that even pagans may enter heaven? We can&#8217;t declare that they will, but we can implore God&#8217;s mercy for them. Right?</p>
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		<title>By: Legion of Mary</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2006/09/praying-for-deceased-heretics/#comment-7582</link>
		<dc:creator>Legion of Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Sep 2006 01:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>That picture of Padre Pio is great</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That picture of Padre Pio is great</p>
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		<title>By: Raindear</title>
		<link>http://www.cornellsociety.org/2006/09/praying-for-deceased-heretics/#comment-7583</link>
		<dc:creator>Raindear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Sep 2006 21:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cornellsociety.org/2006/09/praying-for-deceased-heretics/#comment-7583</guid>
		<description>Although I suffer not from the dilemma of heretical ancestors, I think this is a lovely notion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although I suffer not from the dilemma of heretical ancestors, I think this is a lovely notion.</p>
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