Comments on: Those with spark will be saved

By: Tobias Petrus

Tobias Petrus — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 19:20:00 +0000

Here is a more positive interpretation of what our Holy Father said. It helped me understand the second part of his commentary, about the “spark” of salvation. http://www.catholicism.org/zenit-indifferentism.html

By: Cosmo

Cosmo — Thu, 01 Dec 2005 22:03:00 +0000

I think we should remember that the Pope was teaching in step with Augustine and did suddenly present some novel doctrine. It bothers us because this idea has been overused- and simply abused- by false teachers who would have us deny the exclusivity of Christ. Nonetheless, what the Pope said was true, and we can’t always act in reaction to those who abuse the Truth. (I am often tempted to resent teachings on serving the poor because of the mischief caused by so many who champion “social justice”!)
Furthermore, the Pope did not say that there is some alternate salvific path for those who do not accept Christ, but merely that amongst those who do not know the True God there are some who are journeying toward Him and will be saved. This involves the always problematic yet real distinction between descriptive and prescriptive language. The Pope is describing a reality, not prescribing it. Newman makes this distinction when speaking of being saved by faith. When we look back on our lives in light of our sin, our weakness, and our infidelities, we descriptively proclaim that we are saved by faith. But when we ask, “what must we actually do to inherit eternal life,” the answer is not “have faith” but rather, the prescriptive: “You know the commandments, thou shalt not…”
It must be terribly difficult to be the Pope in the sense that every time you voice even a legitimate perspective of faith, it is seen in the context of a behind-the-scenes rhetorical battle being waged in the Church. The U.S. generals in Iraq say equally as important as the actual battles of the ground war is the war of ideas- the battles to control the perceptions of the war. Benedict seems to be slowly winning the ground war, but we, who are more “media attuned”, wish he were more savvy with his sound-bites.
Also remember that both of our last two Pope’s were personally affected by the Nazi state, so while it may seem as political correctness to us, it is Benedict’s, and was JPII’s, personal and concrete experience of evil created by man’s hubris in rejecting God. It is also particularly important for this Bovarian Pope who had to serve as a Nazi soldier to dispel any hint of the myth that the Church is anything but horrified with the Holocaust. Maybe he is just personally sensitive to this reality as well?
The Church just put out a document that questions the legitimacy of homosexuality. On a practical level, can you be any more countercultural as far as the world is concerned? People will be after the Church with vengeance in reaction- the universities and media are full of atheist socialists who love to smear the Church- we should not give them ammunition. Once this generation of elites is out of power along with their nonsense atheist humanism propaganda, then maybe history and reality will once again prevail. Until then, the Pope is probably wise to constantly reinforce the obvious- politically correct or not.

By: Matthew

Matthew — Thu, 01 Dec 2005 22:02:00 +0000

Someone made an interesting point on the FreeRepublic.com Religion thread, in response to an excerpt of your original post that I posted there.

He said, “Invincible ignorance is not salvific.”

“Without Faith, no one is saved. Period. It is absolutely essential for the supernatural life to at least believe “that God exists and that He rewards those who seek him,” and probably necessary to also believe, if dimly, in our Lord Jesus Christ and the Most Holy Trinity. Cf. CCC 161.”

“Zenit is at fault here for misinterpreting the Pope - and St. Augustine - in a seriously erroneous fashion.”

By: Iosephus

Iosephus — Thu, 01 Dec 2005 21:00:00 +0000

Deirdre, there are certain notorious repeat offenders, like Bishop Matthew Clark in Rochester and Cardinal Mahoney in Los Angeles, of whom it seems that they should have been removed along ago. Being the Supreme Pontiff, Benedict can do something like that at any time, whether it is practical is another question.

I would love to see Latin return to the Novus Ordo. I think that we would see a very different Church today, I mean, in her human elements, if the Novus Ordo had been done, all along, in Latin, versus Deum, and with the dignity that was required in the old Mass. To be sure, even when done this way, there are still important differences between the old and the new Mass, but the congregation would barely notice them. And it is the congregation, the people assisting at the Mass, which breathes in its spirituality from the rite of the Mass.

About teaching the Faith, what I have in mind is the need to proclaim Christ Jesus, and Him crucified, to the many people with whom the Holy Father comes in contact: the Jews, the protestants, the buddhists, whomever else besides. In reading the reports of the Holy Father's speeches at the synagogues, for instance, I get the impression that he did not go there to convert them to the Faith.

I understand that one such as he must always speak with tact and circumspection, but I think that this can be done while also leaving no doubt that none can be saved outside of the Church.

By: Tobias Petrus

Tobias Petrus — Thu, 01 Dec 2005 20:42:00 +0000

Speeches like this just make me shake my head. References to the massacres of Jews in World War II are about as politically safe as you can get. The Holy Father mentions the Holocaust, “which has remained as an indelible disgrace in the history of humanity.” A really provocative address would have pointed out that EVERY sin and disgrace, including genocide, is “delible” provided one repents and turns to Christ. And that while the Jews of Bethlehem — presumably kinsmen of the Holy Family and fellow descendants of King David — refused them shelter at the inn and in their home, the people who came to visit Our Lord (other than the shepherds) were Chaldean Magi, i.e. the descendants of the Babylonian persecutors of the Jews. So maybe Jews should become Christians and do the Christian thing — forgive and forget past injustices, including the “Holocaust,” just as Our Lord would forgive and forget their former rejection of Him.

By: Deirdre

Deirdre — Thu, 01 Dec 2005 20:41:00 +0000

I don’t know much about these matters, but aren’t bishops confirmed by the Holy See when there is a vacancy in some diocese or a new diocese is erected? So until a bishop resigns or there are new dioceses, our Papa really can’t raise priests to the episcopacy - but when he can, I’m sure he will give us some holy and serious bishops.

Why shouldn’t he rather instruct us as to the proper way of saying the Mass of the Roman Rite and bring Latin back into the Novus Ordo instead?

Is he not preaching the faith right now?

By: Iosephus

Iosephus — Thu, 01 Dec 2005 19:50:00 +0000

Give us some serious, conservative bishops; give us wide and easy access to the old rite of the Mass; preach the Faith to the whole world, since he is on the world stage, reminding all that there is no other name under Heaven by which we may be saved.

By: Deirdre

Deirdre — Thu, 01 Dec 2005 19:04:00 +0000

“I am very thankful that Benedict is our Holy Father, but I am still waiting for him to live up to his reputation as enforcer of the Faith.”

What would you have our Papa do?